Scouting Report: Vince Biegel, LB

While his teammate may get all the buzz, Biegel is a interesting prospect in his own right.

While his teammate may get all the buzz, Biegel is a interesting prospect in his own right.

NEPD Staff Writer: Mike Gerken

As we all wait to see what is going to happen with Malcolm Butler, the path to the Draft continues to get shorter and shorter. I have begun work on my top 100 player list as well as my Patriots specific vertical and horizontal big board, but there is still a lot to get done. I think I have all the big name players done, but there are still some small school guys and Day 3 gems I am still wanting to watch. This process seems so long, but always goes way too fast. A few weeks ago, I gave you my report on T.J. Watt, but his teammate on the other side of that Wisconsin defensive line caught my attention, so I decided since the Patriots do not have a pick is round 1 or 2, maybe a guy like Biegel would be an option later. Here is what I saw on the tape.

Positives:

Biegel has good size and athleticism for the position. He is a very smart and instinctual player. He has great play recognition and reacts quickly. Biegel is fundamentally sound and is rarely caught out of position. You can see from the film that he works hard at doing the little things right and loves the game. He plays the game the right way, with a lot of intensity and passion. He was a team captain and considered a leader on and off the field. He has very active hands and a quick punch at the snap. He shows good bend and change of direction to be an option as a pass rusher. He also has the movement and recognition skills to drop into space and cover the flats.

Negatives:

A broken foot cost him a couple games as a Senior and did not look as explosive after coming back, so teams will need to feel comfortable that he can get back to his old self. The one thing I noticed throughout Biegel’s tape is that he ends up on the ground A LOT! I think this is due to a combination of lack of strength and lack of balance. He has to get stronger and add more bulk to his frame to hold up in the NFL. Biegel does not possess any secondary pass rush moves and is rendered ineffective if he doesn’t win with his quickness and hand use at the snap. He does a nice job of setting the edge, but struggles to disengage from his opponent, again, probably from a lack of strength.

Overall:

Biegel has a lot of components the Patriots look for in a football player. He has great football smarts, he works hard and plays the game with passion. He is a team leader and a strong locker room presence. He is not great at any one thing, but he is good at everything he was asked to do. Biegel should be able to come in and contribute on special teams and be a situational contributor entering the NFL. If he wants a more prominent role on any team, he is going to have to bulk up and get stronger. He is a Day 3 guy, but with his work ethic and passion for the game, I think he could develop into a solid contributor in a couple of years.

 

 

 

201 Responses to “Scouting Report: Vince Biegel, LB”

  1. Dan Sullivan says:

    Patriots Mock Draft and Predictions 13.0

    1 (12) From Browns for Jimmy G./ Charles Harris DE Missouri
    1 (32) From Saints for Malcolm Butler/DeShone Kizer QB Notre Dame
    3 Corn Elder CB Miami
    3 Alvin Kamara RB Tennessee
    4 Jake Butt TE Michigan
    5 Dede Westbrook WR Oklahoma
    5 Jeremy Cutrer CB MTSU
    6 Dan Skipper OT Arkansas
    7 Storm Norton OT Toledo

    Get your family to a Red Sox game at Fenway your family will never forget it.
    Go Red Sox!

  2. Stephen J says:

    This from Tony Pauline

    Senior cornerback Brandon Wilson turned in an incredible workout.

    He completed 24 reps on the bench, touched 41 inches in the vertical jump and 11-foot-1 in the broad. His forty was timed in the mid 4.3s (4.35s). Wilson then did position drills at cornerback.
    Wilson will be working out for the New England Patriots next week.

    Bucknell offensive lineman Julien Davenport had a full workout with the New England Patriots today which included film and board work and was impressive.

  3. Mike Gerken says:

    Not sure I have seen this name out there yet, but super sleeper Darnell Leslie from Monmouth had his pro day today and killed it.
    6’2″
    235 Lbs.
    40.5″ vertical
    11’1″ broad
    good tape too. Great motor and good bend around the edge. Didn’t drop much in coverage so his role is limited for now.

  4. steve earle says:

    Let me try another mock sense things have settled down, at least for now. Not going to try to project any trades or anything, just what we have right now to work with.

    3#72) Kareem Hunt RB Toledo
    3#96) Daeshon Hall DE Tex A&M
    4#131) Howard Wilson CB Hou ( pending Butler )
    Alt. if Butler stays– Vincent Taylor DT Okla St.
    5#163) Damontae Kazee CB S.D.S
    5#183) Connor Harris ILB Lindenwood
    6#200) Andrew Edie OL BYU
    7#239) Jaravius Lemon OT S.Car>St.

    • Stephen J says:

      Well it looks like you can take Wilson off your board.

      Howard Wilson ran the forty in the high 4.5s (4.58s), similar to the time he ran at the combine.

      Then thing got really strange. Wilson refused to participate in position drills. When scouts asked if he was injured he told them no.
      Later on Wilson was throwing the ball to former Cougars signal caller Greg Ward Jr, who was warming up for receiver drills. According to eye witnesses someone ran down and yelled for Wilson to stop throwing the ball- which he did

      • steve earle says:

        Sure seems like. Maybe I can just slip this guy Brandon Wilson in that spot and claim the other was a typo. LOL! Actually I’m leaning to the thinking that Butler will be back anyway. Just can’t understand why all the drama in the first place? Just should have made a deal both could live with and gotten on with business.

    • Jeff says:

      I’d be happy with those 2 in the third round. I’m high on Hall, and Hunt should be a well rounded contributor.

      • steve earle says:

        I was thinking that Hunt would round out the RB group pretty nicely even if bill only kept those four and Devlin at FB. The more I read about Burkhead the more I like him. None of these guys are huge like Blount but all four can move the chains and catch out of the backfield. Some think one more RB will be added, a smaller type because both Lewis and White will be in their last contract year. Could be, have to see how Bill goes with that.

  5. Stephen J says:

    As far as finding film on players this is what I do.

    The first choice is going to http://draftbreakdown.com/ and searching for the player you wish to look at.

    Now for the smaller school players what I do is this. Let’s take Stetson S Donald Payne as an example.
    1st I’d search for Stetson Football 2016 on youtube. In this case it shows many highlight clips with one full game vs the Dayton Flyers listed.
    2nd I’d search for Stetson Football 2016 Schedule then look for Wikipedia listing. Then it will give you the listings and in that listing there is a section that says TV and will list them such as youtube or many instances ESPN3 with a link click on that link and it will pull up that game. If no link go to espn3 and search for the game listed.
    Along with that you may want to search the Stetson 2016 Roster and get that players number so you know what number to look for when watching the game.

  6. Dan Sullivan says:

    Patriot Mock Draft 12.0
    2 (Possible from Saints in trade for M.Butler) Larry Ogunjobi DT Charlotte
    3 Pat Eflein C/G Ohio State
    3 Bucky Hodges TE Virginia Tech
    3 (Possible from Saints in trade for M.Butler) Josh Jones S NCS
    4 Jalen Myrick CB Minnesota
    5 Daeshon Hall DE Texas A&M
    5 Jamaal Williams RB BYU
    6 Harvey Langi LB BYU
    7 Nate Hairston CB Temple

    I’d Like to see Blount back for another year.

    • steve earle says:

      Hey Dan, looking at your mock it’s hard to decide how to go when we don’t know how the Butler and JG things are going to play out but give you credit for making the attempt. Only thing on yours is I have DE Hall rated up around our #96 +/-

      • Dan Sullivan says:

        Steve,

        Your probably right about Hall as he will probably go sooner.
        The strengths of the draft I see are CB,DE,RB,TE and S.

        Enjoy the draft it will be here soon.

  7. Stephen J says:

    Ok some interesting fun stats from Pro Football Focus on WR’s

    1st Top 2017 WR Prospects production on deep receptions (20+ yards from LOS)

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C73a4k2WsAILGC1.jpg:large

  8. Mike Gerken says:

    Sorry I haven’t been on for a few days. I have been hold up in my bunker trying to get through some of these lesser known/harder to get video of players. I will be releasing my top 100 on here either tonight or tomorrow morning. There may be a little tweeking of it before the draft, but I feel pretty good about it. I have done at least a little bit of scouting on 381 players, but feel really good about 200-225 I would say.

    • Stephen J says:

      Dang Mike 381 players that’s a lot of work covering that many players. Nice job.

      • Mike Gerken says:

        Thanks,
        its a labor of love. I wish I could post about all of them. Great tips on finding film btw. The wikipedia search is a good one. I probably get to the same place, but not as easily, so I am going to steal that idea.

  9. Stephen J says:

    Now here is a guy that is real interesting. I say interesting for many reasons. He was a DL who played LT the last two seasons and has had NFL teams specifically request that he snap the ball for them at his Pro Day and like the rest of his Pro Day he apparently did really well. Who am I talking about BYU’s Andrew Eide. Here are his Pro Day Results along with previous Patriots to give an idea reference point from an athletic point of view

    Andrew Eide ……………………. Logan Mankins(G)…Dan Koppen(C)………Dan Connolly(G/C)
    6’5″………………………………..6’4″…………………….6’4″……………………..6’4″
    303 lbs……………………………307 lbs…………………297……………………..311
    Vert 30 1/2″……………………..31 1/2…………………28 1/2…………………..28 1/2
    Broad 9’6″(114″)………………..7’9″(95″)……………..8’5″(101″)………………9’0″(108″)
    Bench 33 reps…………………..21………………………27……………………….22
    40 5.17……………………………5.06……………………5.43…………………….5.19
    3 Cone 7.91………………………7.54……………………8.26…………………….7.67
    20 Shuttle 4.80………………….4.45……………………4.56…………………….4.54

    In one of his interviews he mentioned that he started training for G/C snapping the ball after the season ended and leading up to his pro day so he was prepared when the scouts asked him to snap the ball and do Center drills. He also said he knew he was going to do well in the Broad and Vert jumps because he used to play Basketball. Then the strength came from when he played DE.

    Now I only include Eide here because of his versitility(He could play every line position) and with those athletic numbers he maybe someone that fly’s under the radar as a surprise pick. Now I haven’t watched any tape as of yet but it’s someone that I’d thought was intriguing enough to mention.

    • steve earle says:

      Looks like an interesting find Stephen. Great versatility possible. I like his numbers better then Holden”s too. Not making eval of his ability just saying. When you get some more info on this kid We’ll be looking forward to seeing it. Thanks for all your work and insights.

    • Todti says:

      “That broad jump, tho.”

      • steve earle says:

        Yea Todti, way ahead of the others in the broad and bench, little slow in the shuttle and cone. On balance it looks good but raw numbers are not the whole story only a indication to look at a guys game film. Unfortunately I don’t have the guys game film so just saying “I like these numbers”.

    • steve earle says:

      Question Stephen, where does Andrew Eide rate on your board? I have Jon Toth OC at around our #183 to 200 and thinking Eide might line up around there too. Just based on his test numbers, no game films. What’s your thinking?

      • Stephen J says:

        Good Question Steve I haven’t really determined that yet so many variables. I was thinking while watching him play who does he reminded me of. It dawned on me late this afternoon. Marcus Cannon. Then I compared their pro day and combine numbers and I was surprised at what I saw.

        Andrew Eide………………………..Marcus Cannon
        6’5″…………………………………………6’5″
        303 lbs…………………………………….334 lbs
        Vert 30 1/2″…………………………….30 1/2
        Broad 9’6″(114″)……………………..8’9″(105″)
        Bench 33 reps………………………….33
        40 5.17…………………………………….5.26
        3 Cone 7.91………………………………N/A
        20 Shuttle 4.80………………………4.97

        Outside of the 30 lbs difference they match up fairly evenly outside of the 40 and short shuttle which with the 30 lbs difference I would think that is what would account for the difference. Now Marcus Cannon was drafted in the 5th but he dropped on boards because of his Cancer diagnosis. Now I haven’t watched enough of him. Though they play similarly from what I’ve seen I’d say Marcus overall was better when he come out. Now I believe that was because Edie transitioned from DE to OT and was still learning which showed up on tape at times. I believe he has the skills to develop but he is not as developed as Marcus was. The other thing is that it looks like most teams want him as a Center so that will take some time to develop into but even with that said Dane Brugler said this of him https://twitter.com/dpbrugler/status/845366406187270144

        Along with that he will be a 26 year old rookie. So where would I place him I’m thinking 6th-7th round but really don’t know due all the variables.

        • steve earle says:

          Wow, yea they are close. I like your reasoning on draft range. I was thinking around #200 +/- and wanted some confirmation. Thanks!

  10. Russell says:

    Really like OT Will Holden (in all of my Patriots Mocks) and his family’s military life style/disapline. Holden often speaks about how his family’s military back ground growing up contributed to his work ethic. Holden is majoring in; Human & Organizational development, 2013,14,15,16 SEC Academic Honor roll. Also achieved Eagle Scout ranking.
    I’ve moved Holden around in my Mocks, Scouts list him as the #7 OT in the country, so it depends how bad BB wants him, I’m thinking #96.
    Another OT prospect to watch is Max Rich, Harvard 6’7″ 311 lbs. 5.12 40 yd, 4.51 20 yd shuttle, 6th-7th round.

    • Russell says:

      OT LaAdrian Waddle is a mystery as to what the Patriots think of him? I’ve watched tape on him while he was in Detroit at ROT, and was not great, so I don’t know what to think about him.
      S Jordon Richards is in the same mystery boat, so it’s hard to know what the Patriots think?

      • Todti says:

        With Richards, I think it’s just smarts and leadership. Belichick likes to have those players (who doesn’t) and if he turned into a solid player they’w have a valuable communicator on the field. If not they might still have the inside track on a future coach. That’s my theory.

    • Stephen J says:

      I’m liking what I see from an athletic point of view on Max Rich.
      Someone on Patsfans.com message board posted a comparison to Nate Solder and I added Holden here and added arm length

      Max Rich………………..Nate Solder………….Will Holden

      Dates: 03/13/17
      Height: 6072…………………..6082………….6070
      Weight: 311……………………319……………311
      Arm Length:N/A………………35 1/2………..33 1/4
      40 Yrd Dash: 5.12…………….5.05…………..5.47
      20 Yrd Dash: 2.91…………….2.93…………..n/a
      10 Yrd Dash: 1.77 ……………1.77…………..1.83
      225 Lb. Bench Reps: 25……..21…………….23
      Vertical Jump: 30……………..32…………….28
      Broad Jump: 08’09″(105″)…..9’02″(110″)….9’03″(111″)
      20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.51………….4.34…………..4.72
      3-Cone Drill: 7.18……………..7.44………….7.71

      • Stephen J says:

        Here is a scouting note from NFL Draft Line on Max Rich#79 from the 2016 Harvard vs Yale Game

        When I watched Harvard earlier in the year OT Max Rich was hurt, but started at left tackle in this one. There were some good things, particularly in pass protection, but I do think he’ll need to get much stronger to make a roster. He has a solid base in pass protection and is active with his hands. You see a lot of OTs lower their hands with each step they take in pass protection setup, but Rich is able to move and keep his hands up ready to strike. A couple of times power gave him a problem, although one time he did re-anchor and get out of jail. He was called for holding on one play as the QB scrambled, but that’s always difficult as he’s not aware of what the QB is going behind him. In the running game, he wasn’t quite as good. He’s a zone type of blocker, but he missed a few blocks and his lack of strength was more evident. I think he has potential, but might need a year on a practice squad which he can spend in the weight room.

        What’s funny to me is two things I saw some highlights of this and just started watching it combine that with putting this comparison together I see it slightly differently. Could he get stronger sure but to me his strength is sufficient/serviceable enough look at the bench reps and compare that to Solder’s. To me it wasn’t so much his strength as it was uncertainty. There were times where he wasn’t sure which player to block or to say it better what assignment he had and I think that was the main reason of the missed blocks. I say this because when he knew his assignments he had no problems in the run game and got to the next level using his athletic ability nicely. Also with the example he gave above where Max had trouble with power but was able to re-anchor that tells me his athleticism was sufficient in that he was able to recover because 1 he knew what to do next in order to recover 2 The athleticism allowed him to recover.

        • Stephen J says:

          I just noticed something in regards to strength for the 1st time. I was looking at the upper body strength and that deals with the bench press. The one thing that I haven’t thought about is what shows the lower body strength the two jumps more specifically the broad. Now that is where he may need to develop more strength. The average combine broad jump for OL is 8’6 1/2″ so he is slightly above the average but definitely below Soldier who I would consider more fast than strong.

      • Stephen J says:

        I’ve seen this before but not sure what it is or how its used but it makes Max Rich look good.

        https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C61hI0wWoAAr9Zr.jpg:large

    • steve earle says:

      Okay you like Will Holden for his intangibles I believe your saying. But measurements suggest he lacks both straight line and lateral speed for OT. Do you think a move inside would make him a potential NFL starter?

      • Stephen J says:

        For Me no I think he is good at OT to big to go inside. Just needs work on technique. He is better vs power guys weaker against speed so you work and develop what you have. Solder is faster than him yet he still struggles against the speedier/bendier OLB. So you scheme around that. He could develop into a starter look at Marcus Cannon it looked bleak there for a while but he came around. Plus others who were late round/undrafted linemen that turned into starters. Just give Donte Scarnecchia something decent to work with he will turn into something quite nice.

    • Stephen J says:

      OK Russell Pick 96 Both Tomlinson and Holden are there which one do you choose knowing neither will be there with our next pick(131st). To me between the two it’s Tomlinson and it’s not even close. I wouldn’t even start thinking Holden until that 131st pick at the earliest. Then if he is there at 131 then I would be looking at my board to see if he has the most value or if another player had more value say Josh Jones or Kareem Hunt or someone that was injured like Sydney Jones

      • Russell says:

        This will be the hardest Patriots draft I can remember. If Tomlinson & Holden are on the Board, DT Tomlinson is my choice. In fact I would take Tomlinson at #72, if S josh jones is off the board.

      • steve earle says:

        Fully agree, no question Tomlinson would be the choice at #96 of the two.

  11. Todti says:

    Nice article on Stephon Gilmore by Ben Volin:
    http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/patriots/2017/03/25/stephon-gilmore-patriots-seem-good-match/uZoyMw7jJNQRHYarv1Dx2L/story.html

    It was really nice to see what Dennis Thurman, DC under Rex Ryan said:
    >>“He wants to be told exactly what to do and how you want it done, and then he’ll go out and he’ll try to do it,” said Dennis Thurman, Gilmore’s defensive coordinator in Buffalo the past two seasons.
    “I really feel like he will thrive in New England with the way they handle their business, because they’re exact, and that’s the way he likes to be coached,” Thurman said. “I just think it’s a match made in heaven. I really do. I couldn’t be happier for him.”<<

    • Stephen J says:

      Thanks Todi it would of been nicer to hear his old coach say he likes receiving direction then goes out their and does it rather than tries to do it but nice to know he doesn’t free lance.

      • Todti says:

        Yeah, I noticed that too. But still, Gilmore’s a hard worker, coachable and has all the athletic traits to succeed. I’m more content with the Patriots acquiring him after reading the article.

  12. Stephen J says:

    A Good Graphic of the Remaining Pro Days coming up

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C73MPedW0AAW3lH.jpg:large

  13. Stephen J says:

    It’s time for me to Tackle the OT position. There isn’t a huge need for an immediate replacement more so for a developmental or possibly a swing tackle. I like Ethan Hammerman’s breakdown article http://www.patspulpit.com/2017/3/6/14827738/17-years-new-england-patriots-analyzing-offensive-tackle-bill-belichick-light-solder-vollmer-cannon dealing with the Tackle position. Specifically dealing with the swing Tackle. Right now that swing tackle is Cameron Fleming. He is currently a Restricted Free Agent like Malcolm Butler. That could be why the Pats are looking at that position in case it doesn’t work out with Fleming. If so I started looking for Tackles that meet the Pats criteria (which is also mentioned in Ethan’s article look for good jumps and shuttle times). This years class isn’t great in times and jumps but here we go.

    • Stephen J says:

      Reminder the swing tackle isn’t top tier level more so solid back up/replacement that could later develop into a starter. That being said the one that keeps coming up and meets that criteria is Will Holden. Now I don’t love the guy but he fits that swing tackle mold. His broad jump of 111″ is what stands out as far as athletic criteria the pats look for. Now here is a clip of him taking on Charles Harris(1st-2nd rd prospect) and his bull rush and holding up fairly well. https://twitter.com/DaBigEasy24/status/843853607065804800

      That is something that you would be looking for in a swing tackle

      Now it comes down to where do you take him. Now using Pats recent past drafting history with swing Tackles as a guide Cameron Fleming was drafted in the 4th round and Marcus Cannon who was that swing Tackle before becoming a starter was drafted in the 5th. So those are the rounds I’d be looking for them to select a Swing OT. Now will Holden be there maybe in the 4th less likely in the 5th.

      • Stephen J says:

        Something else with Holden it’s not just his Broad Jump but add in his size 6’7″ 311 lbs plus a sub 4.75 short shuttle.

        • steve earle says:

          Still not a Will Holden fan. His shuttle times (sub 4.75) is barely passable for ROT but don’t see him as swing T .

        • Stephen J says:

          Hey I don’t love him either but don’t hate him plus he fits what the Patriots look for in an OT. This class isn’t that great as far as OT’s go but he is one of the better middle of the road OT’s this year. My question is, is he better or does he have more upside than Cameron Flemming or LaAdrian Waddle. Right now I don’t believe he is better but has the upside to become better.

      • Stephen J says:

        Here is a short video scouting report on Will Holden as well that I came across

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8F322gYabM

      • Todti says:

        Agree, that’s the range I see the Patriots take an OT and 4-131 seems like a good one to me. When evaluating OT fits I always have problems because on one hand you want your OT to be this long, strong, athletic uber-complete beast. On the other hand, the Patriots’ quick-passing game kind of eases the burden on OTs so that you can get by with inferior talent. Hogan and Cooks added some speed to the offense but the long plays are still results of play action. That’s one of the reasons Fleming was surprisingly solid last year, in my mind.

        • Stephen J says:

          One OT that I was liking that was fits in with the Pats Athletic criteria was Taylor Moton but as I was putting this together I saw Moton being closer to a starter though not top tier instead of a Swing Tackle. I like him more than Holden but he seems like he will go higher as well say 3rd round maybe even late 2nd which is higher than the Pats go for their Swing Tackles.

    • Stephen J says:

      One OT that I am currently looking into as a Developmental Undrafted type is Zach Voytek of New Haven. He is listed 6’5″ 312. He was a captain this year as a senior.

      Here is his Senior Highlights

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DT2CMxE0Co

      • Stephen J says:

        Well come to find out Zach is 6’04” and is more of a guard in the NFL. From his clips he loves throwing other players around and to the ground. While watching him he doesn’t appear to have much technique other than just brute strength and power yet with only 22 reps on the bench it would appear he won most of his matchups due to the size difference. So I’m moving on.

  14. Stephen J says:

    For those that are interested here are the times and measurements from the Michigan Pro Day

    http://touch-the-banner.com/michigan-2017-pro-day-results/

  15. Russell says:

    Comparing;
    Jimmie Gilbert, 6’4″ 231 lbs. 4.66 40yd. 37 V. 10″ BJ. 12 Bench, 4.57 20yd shuttle
    Z. Cunningham, 6’3″ 234 lbs. 4.67 40yd. 35 v. 10′ 4″ BJ. 15 bench, 4.74 3-cone
    I’ve watched both these guys on tape, and Zach plays more ILB/OLB, where Gilbert plays OLB/DE. Gilbert offers more versatility, is more fluid in pass drops, and uses his hands/arms (34″) to get off and control blockers.
    Zach is considered a late 1st, or 2nd pick.
    Gilbert is considered 6th-7th pick.
    In my opinion, Gilbert interviews like a much more intelligent prospect, and is a FAR better value in the draft. The Patriots have met with both these guys.

    • Russell says:

      OOPs; Cunningham’s 20 yd shuttle was 4.29, and he has 34 3/8″ arms. The 3-cone was a type-o. Sorry.

  16. Stephen J says:

    Another Small School Prospect that was a Man Among Boys from the limited amount of highlight tape I’ve seen who also had a very nice Pro Day the other day is

    Stetson S Donald Payne
    Pro Day
    6’0′ 223

    40 4.48
    3 Cone 6.75
    Vert 37.5″
    60 Shuttle 11.56

    Now with small school guys the hardest thing is finding tape. The best so far I came across was this video here. Not Ideal but its the best I have for now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XezONjZSj4I

    From an initial glance he is someone I’d like to find more out about and at this point I wouldn’t mind seeing as an Undrafted Free Agent in camp and see what he can do

    • Stephen J says:

      His Uncle is Ezra Johnson who played in the NFL from 1977-1991 Drafted in the 1st round by Green Bay as a DE. We all know how BB loves those blood lines plus he fits the Pats criteria from an athletic point of view.

    • Stephen J says:

      Props to NFLDraftDiamonds for the Pro Day Info and Family Backround Info.

    • Russell says:

      Payne is a good looking prospect, limited tape but worth looking into more.

      • Stephen J says:

        I came across a couple of game tapes. He’s played LB and ST’s as well. So he can drop back and cover as well as rush/blitz the passer. I’d think he would fit Chung’s role well give him the year to learn if good enough right away could always play special teams if not always could stash him on the practice squad for that 1st year.

        In an interview he had with NFLDraftBlitz here are two questions and answers that stood out to me

        Alex Khvatov: What are your strengths?

        Donald Payne: Instincts and tackling

        Alex Khvatov: What areas of your game are you trying to improve upon?

        Donald Payne: Definitely my footwork and technique. I can get away with it at the college level, but I would have to work on my technique at the next level.

        • Russell says:

          YES I like the guy, & off the radar. Interviewed fairly well, talks fast with a quick thought process. I would give him a shot with a 7th round pick, unless I was very sure I could get him after the draft.

  17. Stephen J says:

    This according to Draft Diamonds

    Cincinnati LB Eric Wilson has met or is scheduled to meet with the Colts, Buccaneers, Dolphins, Jets, Bengals, Lions, Vikings and Jaguars. The Houston Texans also have expressed interest in the physical linebacker.

    Eric Wilson going to be a busy man

  18. Stephen J says:

    The usefulness of the combine and pro day drills summed up on the field of play here in a clip from Hunter Dimick

    https://twitter.com/MarkDulgerianOS/status/845272609252007942

  19. Stephen J says:

    Emory Hunt’s Building through the draft for the NE Patriots

    http://footballgameplan.com/fbgps-building-through-the-nfl-draft-new-england-patriots/

    • Russell says:

      Very interesting thanks for sharing. No-way Will Holden lasts until the 6th round, the OT position is weak in this draft. BB met with Holden in person, and Holden’s family military back ground was a strong influence in his life.

      • Stephen J says:

        Your Welcome,In regards to Will Holden I was watching another player and noticed him on the tape and the two plays I saw with him in it he was abused, I will have to go and look at some Will Holden tape now to get a better perspective though OL is not one of my strengths in terms of what to look for except for the obvious.

        • Russell says:

          Holden is far from a starter, but I think he has the intelligence to become a solid player.

        • Todti says:

          @ Russell
          And I think that’s all they need, at least for the moment. Cannon is locked up and I assume they will extend Fleming. The latter really improved last season and was solid when called upon. Solder will be extended, with his background story and character he’s one of those players the Patriots are content to reward. And Solder seems smart enough to know what his value is.

        • steve earle says:

          With other needs wouldn’t it be better to look for a developmental OT a little later rather then settle for a career back up projection. I’d rather think a vet FA could fill that need for this year then if necessary look for a starter OT next year if the developmental guy doesn’t develop. Only so many draft picks left.

  20. Stephen J says:

    Ok came across a small school player that is a Mountain of a Man and moves well for his size. At first glance he appears to be worth finding more about but here is the initial write up

    http://www.prideofdetroit.com/2017/3/22/14973416/rashaad-coward-meets-detroit-lions-draft-profile

    • Stephen J says:

      Well I watched 1 1/2 quarters of the Bahama’s Bowl featuring Old Dominion and Eastern Michigan to get a look at Rashard Coward the big DT. This is what I saw. He has flashes at times where he just takes over and dominates. One play that was impressive was where it took 3 OL man to block him, he didn’t any pressure but having 3 players working at containing him says something. He also rotated out for 2 series I am guessing to keep fresh. Now there seemed to be plays where he took off or it was specifically designed for him to keep back and clog up an area not sure which it was. Then there was 2 plays where he just seemed to flip a switch and said nobody is going to stop me one ended up either as a TFL or a sack the other was a pressure where the QB threw the ball away but paid a price and what was impressive about that was he lunged/dove and was completely off his feet like he was a LB or DB. Another play he was contained on the outside then put this spin move on towards the middle of the line and found an opening it didn’t lead to anything but that was nice for a 322 pound guy. Overall it seemed to me he could use work on his conditioning he seems like he is still learning the game but has the tools to develop into a quality player.

  21. Stephen J says:

    Say what you want about Delano Hill but that dude sure can tackle especially in the open field.

    • Russell says:

      Yes and very good size/speed, could be a special teams guy day one. Watched some tape on Hill, looked good.

  22. Stephen J says:

    Man I tell you Highlight film is so deceiving game film on the other hand shows/tells another story.

  23. Stephen J says:

    Ok let’s talk some Harvey Langi. I went and watched some 2015 film of him as LB vs his old team Utah. What stood out to me was his Intensity. As I watched he always seemed out of place but always had that intensity about him running into people but without direction. I wasn’t liking what I saw. I was asking myself what does BB see in him other than his intensity. Then it dawned on me what if BB loved what he saw from him was from his previous position as a RB. So I decided to check him out as a RB before he switched to LB. What did I come across was due to injuries he switched back to RB against UMass in which he scored 2 TD’s. This is where his intensity comes into play. He doesn’t shy away from contact he runs with this reckless abandon(intensity).

    In this clip from the 44 second mark to the 47 second mark he is described as the bruiser back then at the 55 second mark as the thunder back.
    Take a look. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=of9gknqf6l8

    Now we all know how BB loves to overdraft but most of his overdrafts have dealt with those that played two positions but were a big Special Teams contributor. What if he was used as a RB who also played ST’s. Not saying that I like the idea of drafting him high but that could explain what BB likes/see’s in him.

  24. Stephen J says:

    Before news of Harvey Langi hit I was looking at another LB that had a good Pro Day.
    That LB was Calvin Munson. This is what Tony Pauline said about him.

    Linebacker Calvin Munson was a big winner and by all accounts looked terrific.

    Munson timed anywhere from 4.68s to 4.75s in the 40, completed 25 reps on the bench and touched 32 inches in the vertical jump and 9-foot-9 in the broad. He looked very good in drills, especially moving laterally — which has been his nemesis. The feeling leaving pro day is that Munson secured a spot in the late rounds.

    So I watched San Diego St vs San Jose State from 2015.`I was much more impressed with him than I was with Jimmie Gilbert. Now I am not saying he is a top of the line LB but he wasn’t a liability in the run game. Not only that but he was able to drop back in coverage as well as work his way through the offensive front and put pressure on the QB/disrupt plays. Now that was just one game but I liked what I saw.

  25. Stephen J says:

    Where there is smoke there usually is fire in this case there seems to be a fire brewing between the Pats and Harvey Langi of BYU. When I first read that BB said if he were available last year they would of taken him in the 1st round it caught my attention wasn’t sure if that was real or a joke. So when he was at the combine I took notice to his times and measurements not the greatest but they fit the Pats criteria. Now it appears there is still interest in him with the scouts returning after his Pro Day workout. Looks like its time to start looking at his tape.

  26. Stephen J says:

    Ok here is a comparison one is a Free Agent and one is a Draftee

    …………Devin Taylor vs Daeshon Hall
    Height 6’7 1/4″………..6’5″
    Weight 266……………..266
    Arm L 36″………………35 5/8
    40 4.72………………….4.76
    Vert 35″………………….36″
    Broad 128″………………123″
    3 Cone 6.89……………..7.03
    20 Shuttle 4.30…………4.38
    Bench 14…………………18

    Devin is faster but Deshon is Stronger but relatively similiar from an athletic stand point

  27. macspak says:

    I just wanted to take a moment to thank Mike Gerken, this site, and all the contributors. Your football intelligence, insight and efforts in creating and contributing to this site are most appreciated. Truly a wonderful and enjoyable place to come to discuss Pat’s football etc. I am amazed at the amount of work some of you put into college player research. Like pseudo GM’s. So, THANKS to each and all.

    Mike G., btw that is why I thought a running log would be so good. When you are not posting and creating places for everybody’s input and thoughts it would give the contributors a place to continue year round conversations. If I recall this site kind of dies when you are not providing your scouting analysis.

    • Mike Gerken says:

      Thank you for the kind words, and I am still working on the running blog idea. I really like it. I am hardly tech savvy, so it may take some time, but I have not forgotten the idea.

  28. Stephen J says:

    Both BB and Matt Patricia at Michigan’s Pro Day.

    • Russell says:

      DE Wormley, OT/G Magnuson, Maybe Peppers, but he’s another guy with out a clear cut position.

      • steve earle says:

        Mich has some really good talent wouldn’t be at all surprised if one or more of these guys you mention become Patriots next month. Of the three I like Wormley for the DL.

      • Todti says:

        Wormley’s my favourite as well. I’d add Jake Butt, even though he can’t work out. When your TEs have injury issues you might as well make it a three-peat.

      • Stephen J says:

        Wormley is a solid player. He doesn’t really flash/stand out in an exciting way just a player that quietly does his job.
        Though one player I have been keeping my eye on since he fits the Pats prototypical outline from an athletic point of view is S Delano Hill. Well it seems that the Pats are at least doing more research on him according to Tony Pauline. This is what he said today after Michigan’s Pro Day.

        Safety Delano Hill continues to march up draft boards. Tipping the scales at 223 pounds, seven more than his combine weight, Hill looked terrific in drills. Many commented he was as smooth as the Wolverine corners he was working out with, showing next level footwork as well as hip movement.

        Hill had dinner with the New Orleans Saints last night, met with the New England Patriots before the workout

        I’ve have had him as one of my Safety’s behind S Josh Jones in my mock drafts if he was already off the board

        The other one that seems there is more personal interest in than actual interest in from the Pat’s is WR Jehu Chesson and he seemed to have a good day as well.
        Receiver Jehu Chesson improved his forty time from the combine (4.47s) getting into the low 4.4s (4.42) then looked terrific catching the ball afterwards.

        One final Michigan player I was keeping my eyes on was RB De’veon Smith. I was interested in his 40 and 3 cone times in particularly. Well it appears it didn’t go well for him. He didn’t give any specific times but seemed disappointed in an interview. Looking at his times from the combine they are outside of where the Pats usually select from. For me De’veon first and foremost took care of the football he has decent to good pass protection and catches the ball plus he hardly seems to loose yardage he falls forward for that extra 1-2 yards. Is that good enough for the Pats still to be interested in or will it be like the fumble issue and knock him out of consideration only time and BB knows.

        • steve earle says:

          RB Smith’s times are a real bummer. I was hoping he would have a decent showing. No wonder he declined to run at the combine. He’s dropped on my board to FA.

        • Stephen J says:

          He declined to run the 40 at the combine because he twisted his ankle in one of the runs leading up to the 40

  29. Stephen J says:

    From the Ohio State Pro Day which BB was at

    Those of us that are interested in a RB here is a potential candidate

    Curtis Samuel looked outstanding in position drills. He was run through a battery of receiver and running back drills and he also fielded punts. There’s a lot of debate as to where Samuel will line up at the next level. Most have him on their receiver board while Samuel ranks as our fifth rated running back.

    Sources from Ohio State I spoke with concur and feel Samuel is a Darren Sprole’s type player who should primarily line up in the backfield and occasionally spend time as a slot receiver while doing much of his damage as a return specialist.

    This also from Tony Pauline

    • Stephen J says:

      Now they may say his playing style compares to Darren Sproules but the physical/athletic comparison that I found is of Ryan Matthews

      ………………Curtis Samuel……………………..Ryan Matthews
      Arm Length 31 1/4……………………………….31
      40 4.31………………………………………………4.37
      Vert 37″……………………………………………..36″
      Broad 119″………………………………………….121″
      20 Shuttle 4.33…………………………………….4.33
      Bench 18…………………………………………….19
      The difference came in height and weight
      5’11″………………………………………………….6’1″
      196 lbs……………………………………………….218 lbs

      Now what doesn’t sound right to me in that Darren Sproules comparison is this Darren style is similiar to that of Kevin Faulk and both of them ran pretty impressive 20 shuttle times
      Darren at 3.96 and Kevin at 4.09 though both ran slower 40 times than Samuel
      Darren at 4.47 and Kevin at 4.57
      What this means is that while Darren and Kevin have slower straight line speed their Burst, bend and lateral range are much faster.
      So from the athletic testing point of view I don’t see the Sproules comparison to be completely accurate. Two different kinds of speeds used for two different purposes.

      • Russell says:

        I like Samuel a lot as a slot type receiver, interesting prospect.

        • Stephen J says:

          Where do you think he goes day 2 or 3

        • Russell says:

          I think he goes day three, because he does not have a clear position, Slot, RB, KR. So drafting him means you have a project.

        • Mike Gerken says:

          I think Samuel goes day 2, and it might be early. If a team with vision gets there hand on this kid, he is going to be special. I am a big fan.

        • Stephen J says:

          A 3 way comparison DJ Foster Curtis Samuel and Jehu Chesson

          Height ………………..5’10″…….5’11″…………..6’3″
          Weight………………..193……….196……………204
          Arm Length………….30 1/2……31 1/4………..33 1/4
          Hand Size …………..9 1/4……..9 1/2………….9 1/8
          40……………………..4.57………4.31…………..4.47
          Vert…………………..35 1/2…….37…………….35 1/2
          Broad………………..117………..119……………132
          3 cone……………….6.75……….7.09…………..6.70
          20 Shuttle………….4.07……….4.33…………..4.09
          Bench……………….14………….18…………….10

          As a mutlti purpose receiver type of player who do you like better in that role. I view Chesson as that swiss army knife he can play slot outside do end arounds and is more polished WR, but can’t be used as a RB who could catch like Samuel and DJ. Samuel has that straight line speed but DJ and Jehu are faster in change of direction burst and lateral speed(tight quarters/small area) Samuel is stronger than both Chesson and DJ meaning won’t be pushed around as much by Corners. DJ seems to be a slot only type of receiver and not so much on the outside. Chesson seems from an athletic stand point to be the most explosive out of the 3 due to the broad jump.
          What are thoughts?

        • steve earle says:

          This comparison chart makes Samuel look very good. I may have to reconsider about taking another small RB especially where his strength is so much greater.

        • Stephen J says:

          Steve I’m not sure how this chart makes Samuel look good. It’s a piece of the puzzle. This helps to identify on tape flaws/strengths of the individual. IE I was just watching Ohio St vs Michigan specifically Delano Hill but in a few plays Samuel showed up and because of this chart I saw the flaws in this case in his game specifically his route running in that he was stiff coming out of his cuts which makes them more rounded (plus he is still learning on top of that) and that throws off the timing of the play. Now when Samuel has the ball in his hands and gets a block that opens up the field for him with his elite straight line speed he can take it to the house but he can’t create that on his own due to that lack of elite lateral/change of direction speed.

  30. Stephen J says:

    Utah Pro Day Workout

    According to Tony Pauline

    The Utes other tackle Sam Tevi also impressed scouts. He moved incredibly well for a big man (measured 6060) and showed decent range in drills. Tevi met with the New Orleans Saints and New England Patriots

    • Russell says:

      DE Hunter Dimick 6’3″ 268 ran 4.69 40 yd. and did 38 on the bench. I looked back to one of my Oct. Patriots Mock’s And I had Dimick as a late round guy. His tape is good, with good edge/gap control, & strong in the run game. Teaming him at RDE a long side DT Tomlinson looks like an outstanding pair of prospects, that “fit” what BB wants with gap control.

      • Stephen J says:

        Hunter Dimick vs Trey Hendrickson who do you like better

        • Russell says:

          Dimick I see only as RDE,, 4-5 tech. Not at DT, or fast enough for left DE. Hendrickson I see better quickness to play R or L DE, 4-5 tech, Maybe OLB.

        • Stephen J says:

          Ok I’ve been thinking about Dimick and Hendrickson and this is what dawned on me
          Hunter Dimick would be/fill Rob Ninkovich’s role better
          And if Tyus Bowser and Derek Rivers were already picked/off the board Hendrickson would be/fill the Jamie Collins roll better
          Another player that comes up as well is Basham. I’m not sure which role he would fill better but my initial sense is Ninkovich so Basham would be the 1st choice then Hunter Dimick would be the 2nd if Basham were already off the board.

          Does that sound about right

  31. Stephen J says:

    Jordan Evans Update

    I watched 3 games of his

    2015 vs Texas

    2016 vs Oklahoma St

    2016 vs Auburn

    All three games he was a liability against the run and that is putting it nicely.
    His best game by far was against Auburn and that was because he made a couple of nice plays in the passing game.
    He takes bad angles he takes himself out of position by over pursuing misreading or flat out being manhandled.
    Consider me uninterested. I will pass on Jordan Evans.

    • Russell says:

      I put Evens tape a long side Eric Wilson, and Wilson was clearly better. I will shocked if the Patriots don’t take a chance on Wilson.

    • Russell says:

      The D-line in front of Evans did not protect him much with gap control, so he was taking on blockers at the second level. I think this hurt his play against the run. He is much better in pass drops/coverage . I like Wilson better, but I would draft Evans late.

  32. Stephen J says:

    Here is an article on the LB from Oklahoma Russell was mentioning this morning

    Oklahoma’s Jordan Evans A Dark Horse After Combine Snub!

    http://detroitlionspodcast.com/bryce-rossler/2017/03/11/jordan-evans/

  33. Stephen J says:

    I was just reading an article on Tedy Bruschi when he was going through the draft process. Gil Brandt was talking about him. When he was coming out he dealt with the size issue at 6’0 5/8 inches at 250 lbs. Brandt mentioned it’s too bad that you couldn’t put Bruschi’s motor into most bodies that are coming out. He had the NCAA all time sack record of 52. He had a Vertical of 42″ he ran a 4.68 40.

    Here is the article if interested in reading

    http://tucsoncitizen.com/morgue2/1996/04/19/204054-bruschi-sizes-up-his-nfl-chances/

    • Stephen J says:

      Tony Pauline also reported

      Eastern Washington does not hold its pro day until March 28th but linebacker coaches from the Arizona Cardinals and Tampa Bay Bucs were on campus working out Samson Ebukam today.

      Ebukam is a terrific athlete who should put up good testing numbers next week. He’s also a very good pass rusher who offers potential on the outside of a 3-4.

    • steve earle says:

      I’m impressed by this description. Having no idea how to access Western Washington’s pro day results I’m hoping you will do a follow up on this kid. Have to root for him just based on his history and strength of character. Looks like your best post of the many others Stephen.

  34. Stephen J says:

    An outside the box trade idea

    https://twitter.com/whatisatweetnik/status/844963113497772034

    Not saying I agree with it but like his way of thinking

    • Russell says:

      I’m not sure not having an OT in the system, that’s why the Patriots need to draft a Prospect. Will Holden or Erik Magnuson maybe good possibilities.

    • steve earle says:

      Lambert’s idea is terrible. Trade Solder and who plays LT?

  35. Todti says:

    Has anyone an opinion on RB Aaron Jones from UTEP? 5’9” and 208 lbs. Very productive runner but also contributed in the passing game, apparently he’s versatile and has a well-rounded skill set. At the combine he ranked among RBs:
    14th in 40-yard dash (4.56s), 2nd in vertical jump, 3rd in broad jump, 2nd in 3-cone drill, 3rd in 20-yard shuttle, and 3rd in 60-yard shuttle. Over the last 3 combines, he still ranks 3rd in 3-cone drill (tied with David Johnson), 7th in broad jump (again tied with David Johnson), and 11th in vertical jump (tied with McCaffrey).
    His closest comparisons are Alvin Kamara and Kenneth Dixon: https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/aaron-jones.

    • Todti says:

      “For a man his size, Jones is a load to tackle. He is very physical with a deadly off-hand stiff arm and the ability to lower his pad level into oncoming tacklers. He isn’t a guy you can take down with weak arm tackles, as Jones will run right through them, keeping his feet moving and always looking to pick up that extra yard. One aspect that Jones will need to improve upon is his blocking however. He shows some effort there, but just needs to focus on getting better every day.”
      http://draftwire.usatoday.com/2016/05/18/sleeper-alert-utep-running-back-aaron-jones/

    • Todti says:

      “What do you like most about playing the running back position?

      Aaron Jones: I like being able to change the game, being physical. I feel like playing the running back position you are able to change the momentum of the game with being physical. I know a lot of people who think throwing the ball is what changes the game and creates the big plays, but I like having the ability of making a big run, running over someone or making a big block that gets my teammates hyped up and believing that we can win the game. I am a versatile running back so I can change the game in multiple ways. ”
      http://draftrecon.net/interviews/2017-draft-interview-aaron-jones-rb-utep/

    • Todti says:

      He has a below-average fumble rate, though, according to CBS:
      http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/news/2017-nfl-draft-which-running-backs-raise-red-flags-as-potential-fumblers/
      Fumble rate of 81, so 9 fumbles on his 729 touches in college.

      • Stephen J says:

        I remember looking at him and liking what I was seeing then I looked at his fumbles and I looked no further. Also here is a nice breakdown of what NE looks for in their big backs from an athletic point of view doesn’t include carry to fumble ratio.

        https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7l96ImVUAAEayD.jpg:large

        Graphic from Rich Hill

      • Stephen J says:

        And The Patriots are serious about fumbles here is what Deadspin.com said in May of 2015

        I actually went back and researched 5 year periods for the entire NFL over the last 25 years. The Patriots ratio of 187 plays to 1 fumble is the BEST of ANY team in the NFL for ANY 5 year span of time over the last 25 years. Not was it just the best, it wasn’t close

    • Todti says:

      He also had a DWI charge in early 2016, but he didn’t miss a game last season.
      http://www.minerrush.com/2016/3/1/11140006/utep-football-aaron-jones-arrested-in-february-on-dwi-charge

    • steve earle says:

      This draft is loaded with smaller RB’s of which we already have at least two. If there was no limit on roster size we could stock up and keep half a dozen or so but being realistic and having that limit that’s not a do-able. But thanks for the report, always interesting to know about these guys for future reference.

      • Todti says:

        To be honest, I’m looking particularly for RBs who can catch passes since all three of Lewis, White and Burkhead are FAs after the season. A big back is nice but not necessary (see Lewis on running downs). A pass-catching RB is. That’s why I’m focussing on 3-down backs.

        • steve earle says:

          Gotcha, though seems every year lots of smaller pass catching RB’s are in the draft which makes demand for FA vets of this type less in demand and easier to resign. I look back at Kevin Faulk for instance, he was with us for years. Wouldn’t mind if BB brings another sm back in as long as most of our current needs get filled.

        • Ryan says:

          We shouldn’t have any problems resigning at least one, and probably two of those RBs you mentioned due to the deflated RB market. If teams look at how Shane Vereen failed the Giants, they probably won’t be too keen on pilfering another of our scatbacks.

    • Stephen J says:

      So far in my search I’ve come to the same conclusions as Doug Kyed and this is what he said about the RB position

      Christian McCaffrey, Stanford, Round 1
      Chris Carson, Oklahoma State, Undrafted
      Dare Ogunbowale, Wisconsin, Undrafted

      Finding running backs to project to the Patriots is exceedingly difficult. They must fumble infrequently and run a 3-cone drill at or below 7 seconds with an above average short shuttle. There’s a problem. Many running backs, like Carson listed above, don’t run the 3-cone and short shuttle at the combine. Carson met the Patriots’ other standards while fumbling once every 121.5 touches in college. McCaffrey fumbled once every 205.25 touches and ran a blazing 6.57-second 3-cone. He’s not as big as most Patriots running backs and his 4.22-second short shuttle barely missed the mark. Ogunbowale didn’t fumble in college and ran a 6.99-second 3-cone, which was enough to make our list. We’ll wait impatiently for Toledo’s Kareem Hunt to run the 3-cone at his pro day. We’ll also keep an eye on Wyoming’s Brian Hill, who ran a 7.03-second 3-cone.

  36. Turbo says:

    A mock with our current draft picks. I made this considering Butler is staying with the Pats for the 2017 season.

    3) #72 Tyus Bowser LB
    3) #96 Joe Mathis EDGE
    4) #131 Daeshon Hall EDGE
    5) #163 Jeremy Sprinkle TE
    5) #183 Rayshawn Jenkins S
    6) #200 De’Veon Smith RB
    7) #239 Javarius Leamon OT

  37. Russell says:

    Another interesting prospect; LB Jordon Evans, Oklahoma; 6’3″ 232 lbs. 4.51 40 yd, 1.56 10 yd !!!!! 38.5 vertical, 7.01 3- cone.
    Good tackler on tape, interviews well. Played behind a D line that did not protect LB’s with gap control, so was dealing with blockers at the second level. Looked fluid in drops, ball skills, #4 interceptions in 2016. Quickness shows on tape, reads plays well.
    Academic team, intelligent, passion for football.

  38. Russell says:

    I would not be surprised if Cincinnati traded QB Andy Dalton to Houston. Cinny looks like a team in rebuild mode, and they have QB MaCarron, & QB Driskel under contract. Dalton is 29, and is worth a 1st & 2nd this year, & 1st in 2018.
    Again like Garoppolo , Dalton’s value is high, and would make Houston a 12 win team given their Defense.

    • Todti says:

      I’m not so sure about that. I’m not saying I would be shocked to see that trade because Dalton is on a very reasonable contract for quite some time and the Texans’ defense is good enough, but they don’t need a full rebuild (and the Texans need their picks). And McCarron’s contract ends after this season so if they trade Dalton – which I assume you would do to give McCarron the QB job – they would have to pay McCarron almost immediately for something not that much lower than what they owe Dalton. So the only reason would be the difference in picks you get. But the Bengals don’t need a full rebuild AND they already have 11 picks this year – in a draft that correlates reasonably well with their needs on defense – which are also in good positions because they were pretty bad in 2016 (5 in the top 138). Furthermore, in 2018, they have all of their own picks PLUS whatever they can get for McCarron PLUS high compensatory picks for Whitworth and Zeitler. In my mind, they don’t need a rebuild, merely a readjustment. Dalton and Green are under contracts for quite some time, Dalton for a very nice salary and Green for fair value. They also have Iloka locked up for cheap and extended Kirkpatrick. Eifert is in his last year, but he could be cheaper now because of his injuries. Decisions for Burfict (2017) and Dunlap and Atkins (both 2018) are coming up soon, so if they want to restructure their team they will do that within 2 years. To be honest, the Bengals are in a pretty good condition to adjust. They play 9 games against: Browns (2), Ravens (2), Colts, Jaguars, Bills, Broncos, Bears. If Ogbuehi and Fisher are solid the Bengals can already get back on track. If the OL crumbles, they will have a lot of high picks for a 2nd year in a row and will probably get back on track after that. It comes down to the coaching staff getting time, and if they do I can actually see them giving the Steelers a run in the near future who will have to pay Roethlisberger, Brown, Bell, Pouncey, DeCastro and Heyward >$75m in each of the next 3 years (or will decline, if they won’t).

  39. Stephen J says:

    I watched 2 games of Dylan Cole today one of 2015 and one in 2016. From an athletic point of view his comparison I would say is Eric Kendricks. Now from the two games I watched I would say he is more of a great athlete playing football rather than a football player who is also a great athlete. I read that he has never missed a game due to injury. I think I know why from the games I watched. The angles he takes on his tackles. He seems to tackle from the side and hardly head on. When he does tackle head on he lowers his head and looses location of the player which allows for that little extra yardage gained. Another thing I noticed was he didn’t seem to play on special teams and if he did he definitely didn’t show up. From what I saw the only way I would bring him in for a look is if he went undrafted and was willing to give it a go as a RB.

  40. Dan Sullivan says:

    First Great Job on Mental Health Awareness University of Vermont.

    Patriots Mock Draft 11.0
    1 (Possible trade for Malcolm Butler pick from N.O.) Evan Engram TE Mississippi
    3 Ethan Pocic C/G LSU
    3 Brian Hill RB Wyoming
    5 Trey Hendrickson DE FAU
    5 Jarron Jones DT Notre Dame
    7 Cole Hikutini TE Louisville
    7 Josh Malone WR Tennessee

    • matt says:

      You think the Pats should draft a TE if they trade Butler to No for the 11th pick? You don’t think they should draft a CB? If Butler goes wouldn’t that mean Jones gets more playing time? I don’t have much faith in Jones.

      • Dan Sullivan says:

        Rowe, Coleman and Jones is a solid group plus I think they will add another veteran cb.
        Gilmore is just as good as Butler.

        I think they will get the 32nd pick from New Orleans.

        I like Engram at Tight End to give that Gonzalas dimension with Gronk. Allen will give you
        just as much as Bennett if not more.

        Enjoy the Draft.
        Dan

        • Dan Sullivan says:

          Correction I meant Hernandez not Gonzalez.

        • steve earle says:

          I’ve been asking this all along. Why would BB settle for #32 when he can Take #11? Neither Butler or N.O. controls any of this because Butler is a Restricted free agent and that entitles the Pat’s to a 1st rd draft pick from any team that signs him to an offer sheet, period. Of Pat’s could match the offer.

  41. Mike Gerken says:

    Off Topic, but had a thought I wanted to share. I think it might kill BB if he has to go until pick 72 to make a selection in the draft and he has stated in the past he hates large gaps between picks, so here is what I think might happen:
    Patriots end up trading Butler and a 4th to NO for pick #11. The Patriots then trade down with a team looking for a QB and wanting to get ahead of CLE to have their pick of the QB class.
    This also puts CLE in a bind and could prompt them to pony up for Jimmy G, but I digress.

    Looking at teams that could trade up: ARI, CLE, KC, WAS, HOU. This would get us back into the first and additional picks in the 2nd and 3rd or potentially something for next year.
    What do you guys think? Would you do this?

    Just a thought.

    • Turbo says:

      Hell yeah i would do this. If we pick Conley in the middle of the first to replace Butler i would be really happy. And the extra picks in the 2nd and 3rd would be great too.

      Although i think the Saints not gonna give up their #11 pick for Butler in any way.

    • macspak says:

      I like the Machiavellian bent! I also find it hard to believe BB can or wants to wait until 72 to pick. Your trade is one way to fill the gap though I also don’t think NO will give up #11. As much as we read JG will not be traded my brain tells me the value is too great to not trade him and that is the other way to skin the cat.

    • Stephen J says:

      I like the thought but I was listening to the Saints radio waiting to hear from Nick Underhill to talk about the Malcolm Butler situation and I’d say the Saint’s are already targeting someone outside of Butler with that pick. Ahem a QB Patrick Mahomes. Plus with them signing other players recently Monti Teo and bringing back Sterling Moore it seems less likely but still not ruling it out completely but definitely not for the 11th pick.

      • Ryan says:

        Stephen are they not satisfied with Garrett Grayson, or does Mahones just seem like a sure thing to them? Grayson doesn’t seem like a bad developmental guy in my opinion.

        • Stephen J says:

          They didn’t mention Grayson. What was said was that some team cancelled a scheduled training session (I believe it was the Texans) the Saints booked it and Sean Peyton went out there to personally interview and run him through drills.

        • Ryan says:

          A very interesting development then. Grayson was drafted in the third round just two years to be Brees’ successor, so I don’t see why they would draft Mahomes unless they had given up on Grayson becoming a starter. We’ll have to see what information comes up about him in the coming weeks.

        • Ryan says:

          Just checked it out- Grayson’s been having a pretty rough go of it over the past two preseasons, and this year the Saints even waived him and added him to their practice squad without anyone intervening and signing him. Hearing that, it would definitely make sense for them to pick Mahomes.

    • Russell says:

      With Butler in no rush to sign his tender, tells me the Saints could not work a deal, & I think the move is dead. Dallas and Green Bay are in need of a strong CB, & giving up the #28th or #29th pick seems better than drafting a prospect who may or may not work out.
      Garoppolo is a different story. His value is to great to lose at the end of the year for only a Comp. pick. The Logic of backing up Brady is sound, but an experienced back-up could be brought in at a low cost.
      Cleveland & Houston could make a move on Garoppolo, where BB could get a number of draft picks.

      • Todti says:

        I can’t see Dallas or Green Bay doing something like this. The Cowboys have Nolan Carroll, Orlando Scandrick and Anthony Brown, whom they are really high on, plus Byron Jones. They can easily draft their CB #4 from a deep CB class and have that guy for cheap.The Packers might have a need, but they would run against their own philosophy.
        To be honest, I think the odds are increasing every day that Butler will be a Patriot in 2017. Which would be great, considering the quality the team already has, and Butler either extends his contract for reasonable money because of the lack of interest from other teams or the Patriots have a geat secondary in 2017, lose Butler afterwards and get a high compensatory pick in 2019. Either way seems really good to me.

        • steve earle says:

          I think I’ve seen this before but can’t put my finger on who or when but remember a Pat’s player was scheduled to become an URFA and was expected to go but if I recall Bill worked out a deal with the guy for a few more years. If I’m right Bill could let Butler play this year at the 3+ mil, at least to start the season, and work on the new contract through the season. Maybe not the best way to go but possible.

    • Might a combo of Joey G and Butler induce
      Cleveland to part with the #1 pick which Pats use
      to draft Garrett. In addition to the 1st pick several
      others from Cleveland’s second thru fifth and maybe
      a second rounder in 2018.

      • steve earle says:

        Anythings possible, just not sure if Cleve. would consider that trade and not get that super blue chip DE/LB.

  42. Russell says:

    MOCKING TIME!

    #72- S Josh Jones, Clearly the 5th best S in the draft, (tho I think he’s better than Melifanwu) and a future Patrick Chung replacementin 2018.
    #96- DT Dalvin Tomlinson, With Branch’s age, Tomlinson looks like a good fit in the Patriots scheme. I’ve watch a lot of tape on him, a very disaplined/ gap responsible High energy intelligent player.
    #118- OT Will Holden, A future starter, who learns as a back-up for now.
    #163- CB Jack Tocho, Some players you watch on tape, & they just look like a Patriot, player. Intelligent, team Captain, solid work ethic 6′ 205 lbs. runs 4.54 40yd. 31 5/8″ arms.
    #183- OLB/DE Jimmie Gilbert 6’4″+ 230 lbs. 34 ” arms, 4.67 40 yd. 1.70 10 yd. Played mostly DE, but will need to transition to OLB.
    #200- LB Eric Wilson a great looking prospect, solid tackler, special teams guy (looks like Ebner)
    #239- WR Jordon Westerkamp, Has the look & feel of a slot guy in the future.

    • Mike Gerken says:

      not a bad draft at all. All guys on my Patriots big board for sure.

    • macspak says:

      I like the players and the positions particularly the emphasis on defense.

    • Stephen J says:

      I like the 1st two picks and the placement seems about right but still not sure if either will last to pick 96 but who knows for sure. Here is hoping they do. Not a fan of Holden at pick 118. I like Tocho but if Butler comes back I would be looking for more of a slot CB. Not familiar with Jimmie Gilbert as of yet so cant say. I like what I saw from Wilson and seems to be in a good spot as well. The only thing about Gilbert and Wilson would be I probably choose one or the other and not both due to their size. I’d have one that is smaller rangy and athletic while the other one being mid sized 255-265ish and athletic. Lastly I am just not a fan of Westerkamp

      • Stephen J says:

        Wow just read the results for NC Pro Day

        Tocho 3 cone 7.15 20 shuttle 4.18 everything fits except that 3 cone definitely not slot corner

        Josh Jones 3 cone 7.43 ouch

        • Stephen J says:

          OOPs meant NC State Pro Day

        • Stephen J says:

          For Comparison purposes here is Patrick Chungs times and measurements

          5’11”

          212 lbs

          40 4.49

          20 shuttle 4.24

          3 cone 7.11

          Broad 119″ (9’11”)

          Vert 34″

          Bench 25

    • Tim D says:

      Man I hate Holden. I like the rest of the mock, but I sure hope you’re wrong about Holden. The one game I watched of Wilson he reminded me of Chung. It would be interesting them drafting Wilson and Jones for similar roles. I guess Wilson would start out special teams and maybe develop into more a van noy replacement than Chung replacement.

  43. GM-In-Training says:

    So…kind of a quiet period.

    Rumors:
    – Pats will be patient sorting out Butler’s situation.
    – Cleveland might try to restart talks for JimmyG at the owner’s meeting.
    – Pats might add a veteran FA RB after the draft, although they generally like to get younger and cheaper at RB, but with Adrian Petersen, Jamal Charles, and DeAngelo Williams still looking for a team…there could be some interesting options.
    – Not looking like Pats bring back Revis, even though he could be had for veteran minimum. Maybe that would change if Butler trade happens. I’ve got to believe part of why Butler developed as well as he did was shadowing Revis as a rookie.

    – I’d like to get excited every time the Pats attend a pro day, but it seems like a large part of why they do it is for opposition research on players they won’t draft (but might someday try to pick up).

    • steve earle says:

      I like your eval and though the 3 RB’s you not have considerable mileage on them they each may have something left in the tank. As you say could be interesting. On Revis though I don’t think even if Butler goes he would be much help ( lost that step) and Bill doesn’t think he would work at SAF. Revis is all about Revis too. Much rather have Butler back.

  44. Stephen J says:

    Who is excited for this

    https://days.to/until/nfl-draft

    • D. Martin says:

      Hard to get excited about the draft when your team does’t have a pick until the third round. I was really hoping they would trade Garoppolo and Butler, and then trade back the early picks a couple of times. That way they could leverage two soon to be either leaving the team or breaking the team salary cap into several early picks in one of the deepest draft classes at positions of need in recent memory.

      I am still wondering what makes people so confident Garoppolo could be a successful franchise quarterback. A chance to get an awesome TE and a couple of excellent corners for 4-5 contracted years of cap friendly salaries would do far more to keep this team competitive than Garoppolo or Butler, IMO.

      • Stephen J says:

        Ah come on D Martin

        A lot of things can still happen up to draft day. Wait and see what tricks BB has up his sleeve. What other trades could he make outside of Jimmy G and Malcolm B and they may not be out of the picture yet teams do crazy things around draft time. Remember when we got Randy Moss and Wes Welker from out of the blue. What picks can he use to move up. What player and picks. How about a coach for player swap. How about a coach for pick. Who knows what BB has up his sleeve. Even with out the 1st 2 rounds there are still players out there to be had. It’s been fun getting to know these mid to late round guys. How about trying to identify the famous BB reach pick. What player has the traits of those that BB has selected before where we go who is that oh man that is a reach. Make it a game. How about finding that next gem diamond in the ruff the next Malcolm Butler the next Brady the next Edelman the next Bruschi. Bruschi was the highest player selected out of that bunch and he was in round 4. So there are good players to be had after rounds 1 and 2. Why do you think I post all the times and measurements because they match certain players that BB has selected before. Then its just finding out if they are the same type of player.

        As far as Jimmy G goes what if we win the SB next year and Brady decides to retire. Then Jimmy G takes over. What makes me think he can be a successful franchise QB. Look at what he has around him. More then when Brady started out. Remember when we were saying if only Brady had the weapons Manning had. Not only that but look around our division he is better than anybody in our division. The only one that may compete with him is Ryan Tannehill of the Dolphins but I’d give Jimmy G the edge.

        So yes it is still exciting to me any ways.

      • steve earle says:

        D,– D, hey we got to open our Christmas presents early this year. !st rd pick WR Cooks, 2nd rd pick DE Ealy now we just have to wait a little for the rest. What’s not exciting?

  45. Stephen J says:

    You call that good athleticism

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQrLPtr_ikE

    Now this is good athleticism

    Missouri State LB Dylan Cole (6-0, 239), Buck Buchanan finalist, vg pro day numbers:

    4.49 40
    32 BP
    39″ vert
    10-5 broad
    4.02 SS
    6.82 3 cone

    To be fair a wee bit shorter than what the Pats look for but they have been looking outside of their normal parameters this year in the LB position if not at LB maybe at RB which he played before LB
    Posted more on previous post earlier today

    • GM-In-Training says:

      The Pats have flirted with tweener Safety-LB players in the draft and free agency the last couple years, but none of them really stick. We already have pretty good special teams, so they really need to be a viable backup LB.

      Elandon Roberts is a baller against the run, but too short for my tastes, and seems to be a liability covering TE. Knowing how the Pats value versatility, I don’t think they’d take a 6′ tall LB in the first 5 rounds, even with those traits…unless he was *amazing* against the pass.

      • Stephen J says:

        He led the nation in tackles as a senior with 12.91 per game this past year with 142 in 11 games of which 85 were Solo and he had 8.0 TFL’s 2 Ints 6 Pass Deflections and 4 Pass Break Ups and to top it off he also had 3 Forced Fumbles.

        • Stephen J says:

          As far as height goes I’ve seen him listed as 6’0 6’1″ and 6’2″ but there was a listing as 6’009″ so just a hair shy of 6’1″ I couldn’t find arm length anywhere which may also be a help.

  46. rob says:

    I’ve seen the Pats have met with T.J. Holloman twice. How does Biegel compare to him and where do you see either of these guys drafted.

    • Mike Gerken says:

      They play different positions and were asked to do different things. I plan on doing a report on Holloman since there seems to be some real interest there, so I won’t give too much away just yet. Biegel was on the line and was a pass rusher, Holloman is a MLB. Both are rangy athletes.

      • Russell says:

        Holloman’s tape was not to interesting, and very average at best. However this guy; Eric Wilson showed some very good tape. The Patriots worked him out, 6’2″ 225 lbs. ran a 4.5 40yd. & had a 39.5 vertical!! Had over 100 tackles the last two yrs. at Cincinnati, playing LB.

      • Stephen J says:

        Please No Holloman Eric Wilson on the other hand I wouldn’t mind. He is fun to watch. He is like a missile takes smart angles always seems to be making plays. Seems to have great awareness on the field. Not sure if that’s football smarts or great instincts. Plays on special teams. The drawback with him would be how long would he hold up with the way he plays. He definitely would be a great special teams guy but would he be only a rotational guy on defense say used for certain schemes.

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